SERIES: An Insider’s Look At Modern Golf Club Design | PART 3
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SERIES: An Insider’s Look At Modern Golf Club Design | PART 3

SERIES: An Insider’s Look At Modern Golf Club Design | PART 3

Niche Companies and Garage Tinkerers – The Third Tier

In Part 2 of this Series we covered the first two tiers of golf club design R&D – the major OEMS and the identity companies. Now we turn our sights to the third tier, the small niche companies and “garage tinkerers”, who almost exclusively deal in the underserved short game area of clubmaking: wedges and putters.

The short game clubs have always been the most interesting design challenge to me – their design performance objectives are so different from those for irons and woods. In fact, the short game clubs are actually more demanding in their breadth of design and the enormous variety of situational challenges where they must perform well – and their impact to your game is nearly twice that of your woods and irons combined!

Yet the short game segment remains largely unexplored with much REAL design work, because development there is no better than a tertiary R&D priority in even the largest OEM golf companies.

Exposed

So… I’m calling BS right here, right now, regarding the golf club design merit of practically all of the smaller boutique CNC milled putter guys and wedge custom grinders – I call them “garage tinkerers” – you guys know who you are.

Few really even know much at all about the designs they are copying, but they have excellent websites with some good techno-babble going and compelling price-equated-with-performance marketing working… there are even some “media darlings” emerging in this group.  

Anyone can put up a website these days with good-looking photography, make specious product claims, and proclaim himself a “master club designer”. Who is checking for real performance and product integrity? What, pray tell, are they checking? Who is measuring performance with meaningful performance parameters?  

These little guys rarely deliver to you a better performing golf club that will give you lower scores, because they in fact know very little about golf club design.  

Heresy, you say? Did he really say that? Absolutely. 

All Bark, No Bite

wedge-grind

It seems most golf club design expertise is now proclaimed far too prematurely (with media accolades, “certificates”, and “master” designations), and in the absence of meaningful assessments for design goodness, we golfers pretty much fall for it.

BUT . . . are you going to spend $500 on a new pimped-out customized CNC milled putter with your initials on it and then admit to your buddies (or your wife who still does not know you bought it) that you liked your old cheaper mallet putter from the big OEM because it seemed to work better? Well, you do look like a “player” at the club now… and your handicap is only about 2 shots higher – it’s probably the greens…

These smaller companies tend to be more about copying old designs and adding fitting and customization offerings than anything else – suggesting to you that many of the design possibilities for short game clubs are really just “personal preference” things – or worse that short game design is a settled matter and is therefore of little significance to you (read instead 2/3 of YOUR GAME!)  

They will also try to pass themselves off as manufacturing excellence leaders, when in fact most do not even understand the basics of golf club manufacturing. What they REALLY have is access to a CNC milling machine or a grinding wheel and a passion for being in golf.

YouTube tutorials are fine for learning furniture re-finishing, but they are a poor substitute for learning the manufacturing of golf clubs in a proper professional setting.  

Let me illustrate my point with a few design issues.  

CASE ONE – PUTTER DESIGN:  

MOI

long-hosel-putter

It is well-accepted conventional wisdom (and indeed correct) that higher MOI putter designs provide greater stability on off-center hits for improved preservation of both direction and energy transferred (line and speed in a putter). This keeps some of your putting mistakes still on line well enough and with correct speed enough to be holed instead of becoming misses. It logically follows then that the more a designer can increase the MOI in one of his putters, the better it will perform (and ultimately produce lower scores for you the user).  

Why then would ANY supposedly knowledgeable putter designer intentionally position club head mass high, forward, and near the center of the club with a hosel construction, when the mass instead needs to be located low, rearward, and maximized in the heel and toe for better MOI performance? Why waste 10-15% of the mass available in a normal 350 grams head weight (and the attendant MOI) with the construction of a HOSEL, when this connection can be accomplished through a relatively weightless bore and shaft attachment?  

A knowledgeable club designer interested in advancing the state of the art by giving you better performing products would not. So, one might deduce that putters with hosel constructions come from putter designers who have NOT yet given very much thought to the essential performance attributes of their product designs.  

Grooved Face

Putter Grooves

Grooved face treatments on putters are alleged to create improved putting accuracy with earlier ball over-spin (ergo, less skidding) off of a putter’s face – another conventional wisdom. Grooves will in fact greatly affect the sound and perceived softness of impact, as will excessively deep CNC face-milling cuts, and they may have some undetermined effect on energy transfer.  

Actually, friction between the ball and some other surface (read “the green” and not the putter clubface with practically NO loft) are what causes over-spin with a putt, so where is the testing on spin rates that confirms this? Where is proof of the “cause and effect” relationship between grooved putter faces and over-spin?  Where are the data even to prove earlier over-spin improves accuracy?  

If it really made a difference, no one would play anything BUT grooved faces competitively, and the performance improvement would be obvious to all of us with lower scores and handicaps and finite quantitative measurements – so, where is the data…?

The real truth is contrary – the sooner a ball begins making contact with the imperfections on the green surface, the sooner it can be knocked off line by one of those imperfections . . . and the sooner too the ball will actually go into an over-spin condition – but due to FRICTION with the putting surface and NOT due to impact with grooves on the minimum loft putter club face.  

The Truth About Putters

cnc-putter-mill

So, I would say to you that customized contemporary CNC-milled copies of 50 year old “blade-style” designs will ALWAYS be poor performers against a modern high MOI, no hosel, face-balanced, mallet design – like you see now becoming ubiquitous in professional golf. Mallets will always perform better than blade style putters. It is physics.

Why then would the big putter companies not make anything but these high MOI face-balanced mallets? There are at least two distressing reasons: 1) for some, they sadly do not know much more about putter design than the player-consumers who buy their products, and 2) for others, rather than go to the trouble of developing measurable performance and technology benefits, they just strive for a “variety” of offerings to suit any consumer’s supposed personal preference – it is much easier, and their sales there compared to woods and irons are quite small (so the status quo seems fine).

And, what authority is objectively and quantitatively measuring the performance of these products anyway? How many “STARS” or “Gold Medals” did your putter get?  A little sarcasm here regarding the shallowness of media reviews.  

Another huge problem here is that much of this customization in short game clubs from the “garage tinkerers” goes far beyond consumer preference – it reaches deeply into design attributes that greatly affect performance! Think about that… what looks cool to your eye might actually be detracting from the performance of your putter.  

CASE TWO – WEDGE DESIGN:  

 

The “wedge grinders” would have you believe the basic design attributes of wedges are so well settled that they can “fit” a sole “grind” choice to your swing, and you will be armed with the best short game equipment possible for your game. Did you ever read the shallow explanations of what these “grinds” are allegedly doing for you?  

Bounce

What happens when that meticulously fitted high-bounce “digger grind” of yours encounters the need to play a lob shot from a tight lie? Or how about a bunker explosion from firm sand? We are not playing Bridge here, so you cannot just “pass” instead of playing that particular shot!  

What if Control and Situational Versatility were really the design attributes of paramount importance for a wedge – instead of sole grinds or player fitting?  

Shafts

And how about shafts for wedges? What really are the correct design characteristics of a shaft for wedge play? Multiple choice . . . should it be: 1) shaft design set-matched to your irons, or 2) shaft design customized for your full swing impact vectors, or 3) shaft design optimized for the situational demands of short game play? (Hint: the correct answer for all of us is ALWAYS 3.)

And those are just a few easy to follow examples.

“Sir, can I see some ID”

We hear regularly about or “Master Club Designers” and “Certified Fitters”… where do these guys get these credentials? Does the golf media anoint them in some secret ceremony at the Orlando Golf Show each year? Is there some exclusive school in New England they attend? Or do they create their certifications with graphics packages on their laptops?

Is “craftsmanship” then really the answer? Or is it at best only a PART of the “manufacturing execution” answer? How about the other two “legs” of the stool example – design and fitting? Should we not resolve the many very basic unanswered golf club DESIGN problems FIRST, before proceeding to ANY next questions regarding the issues of manufacturing execution or fitting?

The real truth (but apparently less than obvious) is that at some point the performance goodness of a golf club design will absolutely affect your score – either positively or negatively! It will manifest itself with a putt that drops in the side of the hole instead of lipping out – or a fairway hit instead of missed in the rough – or a green hit instead of a buried lie in a bunker – or a wedge shot you cannot even contemplate playing because of the limitations of your custom sole “grind”.  

These situations take part in driving your score. The damage to your score is greatly mitigated by better golf club designs, but you generally do not know when these scoring situations develop (positively or negatively) as a result of golf club design – you just suffer the consequences, add one to your score, and play on.

Clearly, golf club design objectives should differ enormously for the different product categories. Yet, the industry cannot even agree on basic performance measurement criteria, much less design objectives!  

Where’s the Data

How does one measure the performance of a wedge or putter anyway? Is it the extent of its decoration? Better FEEL? What is FEEL anyway? How does FEEL translate into lower scores? How do you measure it? Is it about excessive spin (until we suck the ball back off the green) or lowered ball flight (until we finally are hitting it knee-high bullets)? Both excessive spin and lower ball flight actually complicate distance control and predictability enormously! Ever “lag pennies” with high spin and lower flight as a kid? How many pennies did you get home with?  

Balls thrown by hand to a target instinctively have a high trajectory and NO spin – does that suggest anything?

And how do we measure performance for putters? By how quickly they roll the ball? By how much decoration they have? By how much of their construction is CNC-milled?  

It is instead quantitative measurements of “proximity to the hole with first attempts from a variety of shot-making situations” that will tell us all we really need to know about performance for BOTH short game clubs – wedges and putters.

So, I’m calling BS on the design credibility of the great majority of these niche and “garage tinkerer” guys! You should too, as the consumer who is overpaying for this under-designed techno-babble.  
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Bob Renegar

Bob Renegar

Bob Renegar

Bob served as Director of R&D for both Arnold Palmer Golf and the Ben Hogan Company. He has worked as a consultant for some of the biggest names in the golf industry and launched both Solus Golf (2003) and Renegar wedges (2011); selling the latter nearly a year ago. Bob holds 5 patents for golf and sports equipment with further patents pending. In addition to his design work, Bob served on Golf Digest's technical panel from 1996-2008.

Bob Renegar

Bob Renegar

Bob Renegar

Bob Renegar

Bob Renegar

Bob Renegar





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      Steve S

      8 years ago

      It’s fun to see all the reactions to these articles. As one who believes in technology and data I try to believe the actual testing over the marketing claims. Where testing is not available, I’ll do my own, preferably on a launch monitor side by side against my current set. My local Dick’s allows you to rent their “fitting bay” when they are not busy. Well worth the money. Has kept me in the same driver for 2 years. Nothing new performs better.

      Lastly, since technology is tending towards maxing out performance of most clubs, there is a big push to sell fitting services. An old friend who is 69 and still plays to a 2(in his youth, 40’s, he was a plus and won a lot of local tourneys) says that fittings are just band aids for crappy swings. His claim is that anyone that is 5’8″ to 6’2″ and of normal proportions should be able to use “off the rack” clubs if you have a decent swing.

      My problem with fitters is determining who is actually competent. Since no one keeps data on fitters it seems like trying to compare snake oil salesman. A few may actually have real medicine but how do you tell without trying them all?

      Reply

      Kenny B

      8 years ago

      “An old friend who is 69 and still plays to a 2(in his youth, 40’s, he was a plus and won a lot of local tourneys) says that fittings are just band aids for crappy swings. claim is that anyone that is 5’8″ to 6’2″ and of normal proportions should be able to use “off the rack” clubs if you have a decent swing.”

      I guess it all depends on what his definition of a decent swing is. I am also 69, 5’11” and fairly average I guess. I have been playing for 25 years and a 9 HCP. I hit the ball straight, and I cannot play “off the rack” clubs; I’ve tried. Irons must be 3* flat, so I guess I have a crappy swing.

      Reply

      Bob Pegram

      8 years ago

      Sounds like your friend” has a crappy attitude!
      I have short arms and don’t bend over much. I use long clubs with graphite shafts to keep the swingweight down. They work well for me.
      It is possible to adjust to ill-fitting clubs and play well, but that is doing it the hard way. Those ill-fitting clubs won’t always work as well under pressure either.

      Steve S

      8 years ago

      Bob and Ken,

      I did forget to say that he can be a bit of an ass about..well… a lot of things. In your cases you may be out side of the “norm”. Having short arms and not being able to bend would require an adjustment, obviously. Having a flat swing, if that is what is comfortable, would require and adjustment.(and yes my buddy considers a “flat” swing a bad one, mine tends to be flat so I hear about it.) But just bending a stock club is a tweak, not a major fitting, IMO. I have long arms and a long torso, but not excessively so. I choke down on graphite shafted clubs (they are usually and inch longer than steel) and barely choke down on steel shafted clubs due to my “Vito” arms as my wife calls them.

      Bob Pegram

      8 years ago

      Steve –
      I wonder what your friend thinks of the swing Ben Hogan had. It was flat. Worked pretty well!
      Ricky Fowler’s swing is flat. Matt Kuchar’s swing is flat. There are others. Lee Trevino’s swing is flat, etc, etc.
      By the way, I can bend over more, but standing up straighter protects my back. More comfortable too.

      Steve S

      8 years ago

      I’ll ask. But other than Hogan the guys whose swing held up better longer and under pressure were more neutral. Nicklaus, Woods, Jones, Snead, Watson, Miller, etc.

      By the way the guy considered the best ball striker by many pros, Moe Norman, was a little flat, but not as flat as Trevino..

      Geo Golfx

      8 years ago

      Putters are a unique fit. As alllll the best time , material and machining could be done And still a million different putters could fit a million different people (length ,lie, loft etc etc). Wedges…. It’s amazing how many people ignore shafts , and how much that can impact performance.

      Reply

      Daniel Overbey

      8 years ago

      What garage tinkerers are you referring to?

      Reply

      Colby Evans

      8 years ago

      I’m trying Philipp… I replied to a conversation a few days ago

      Reply

      Colby Evans

      8 years ago

      Sorry, I can’t take this seriously. Why? Because Byron Morgan exists, because LaMont Mann exists, because Tom Slighter exists, because several other boutique putter makers exist. And those boutique putter makers know exactly what they’re doing. The 3 I mentioned specifically, I’d put their knowledge and product against Scotty and Bettinardi all day long. Wedge grinders such as James Patrick and Joe Kwok, I’d put their knowledge and product against Renegar’s all day long.

      Reply

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      Just because you happen to like something doesn’t mean it can hold up to the scrutiny of actual performance testing. The boutique guys, with very few exceptions don’t hold up against mass market stuff from the likes of PING, TaylorMade and others. Year after year, testers love the way the handcrafted/custom stuff looks and feels, and year after year they sink more putts with the cheaper OEM stuff. The guys spending on actual research are the guys producing better product. Not prettier product, not better feeling, not looks good in a bag, show our friends how much money you spent product – score lowering product.

      We’re not talking about thousands of putts here, we’re often talking about 10ths of strokes, but as anyone who has ever lost a $2 on a Nassau or several hundred thousand on tour, there’s a point at which one putt matters. Whether or not that matters enough to the point where function is chosen over form is a personal choice.

      Here’s your reality check on JP. He’s an incredibly talented craftsman, knows how to grind, for sure, but that doesn’t mean he understood the performance implications of the various wedge sole design. JP had an absolute ton to learn about wedge performance when he joined Titleist. There’s a reason why they’ve kept him squirreled away and doing work on the asian tours and whatnot since they hired him. He’s been studying, bringing his skills on the performance side up to par with the craftsman side. My hunch is that if you asked, he’d be open about how much he needed to and has learned over the last few years.

      As I said about Tyson Lamb, he’ll likely have a similar opportunity one day if he wants it, most of the garage guys never will.

      Reply

      Kenny B

      8 years ago

      MOI – and I am not talking French here. I am by no means an expert and I am probably all wrong, but I think MOI in a putter is highly overrated. The sweet spot on drivers and irons is not very big but golfers can hit it well enough to play the game swinging at 85-125 mph; pros obviously do it better than amateurs. If you can’t do that, you wouldn’t be playing. The sweet spot on a putter is smaller, but the speed of the putter is so slow, you can see the putter impact the ball. I can not see how anyone can miss the sweet spot on any putter far enough for MOI to make a significant difference. If a person is that bad of a putter, there are many other factors that probably come into play that affect a putt more than an off center strike; swing path, club open/closed, acceleration/deceleration. I also think off center strikes are less important with the larger like Super Stroke; yes, the club may twist a little but a decent grip and slow speed doesn’t seem to make as big of a difference as the other factors in a putting stroke.

      I have always used a face-balanced blade putter, but last year tested the Nike Converge mallet and it performed fine after I got used to the “feel” of it. I also went on a business trip and over the weekend I went to play golf without my clubs; the course had rental sets of Titleists with new Bullseye putters. That putter was about as different from my putter as I could get, but after putting on the practice green for an hour, I had no trouble putting with it. I am sure that I didn’t hit the sweet spot on the Bullseye every time; hell, I don’t even know if it has a sweet spot!! But it was controllable, and with a good path, face angle and speed it worked fine.

      I guess I would like to know if MOI is more hype in a putter design or does it really make a measurable difference in performance? I can see it in drivers… not so much in putters.

      Reply

      Jerry

      8 years ago

      I’m sure I’m not alone in thinking this. MGS has to straddle a fine line to both attract readers and make enough revenue to pay its bills. A tough thing to do and I applaud MGS. But I remain frustrated I guess with the golf industry and how unchallenged they are allowed to be with the claims they make with every new product release. For example, golf balls have always claimed to be longer, more spin/less spin, you name it. When they are introduced the Mfg says “The new 4-layer ball has a harder/softer cover/center that allows it to spin less on drives but spin more on irons. Yow. Ever wonder how a mattress can have 15 different layers of memory foam/springs/titanium fabric and give you unparralleled beauty sleep Drs recommend? Why doesn’t layer 5 get negated by layer 3? So we thus rely on stats, i.e. Who plays that ball on tour? Our assumption is the ProV must be better since it is played by a majority of Pro’s. Of course how many of us swing 110+ mph? Now I get it that there are a zillion variables that mitigate testing as Tony will remind us. But really, why doesn’t somebody put the top 10 balls to a robot test? Has anyone done this? Did I miss it? Wouldn’t it show some useful data? How about 10 hits each with some top driver and show the “distance”. Then 10 hits each with a wedge and show spin rates. Maybe the ProV would do better than the others in both tests. Maybe not. Maybe a Snell would duplicate ProV’s data? Maybe Nike’s top ball or Srixon’s would come out on top. Even if you tinkered with the robot’s swing speed or duplicated the test with different drivers and/or shafts wouldn’t the test data be useful to us loyal readers?

      Reply

      Steve S

      8 years ago

      Consumer Reports did a golf ball test with robots swinging a driver and an 8 iron. Don’t remember all the details but it was about 5-7 years ago. They had selection for Best and Best Buy. The best buy was the Titliest DT Solo. Don’t remember the best because I am too cheap to pay $50 for a dozen balls.

      You could probably Google for the results which I’m sure are somewhere in the “cloud”.

      It would be nice for MGS to duplicate those tests again.

      Reply

      Josh Jeffers

      8 years ago

      Written by a guy with a small wedge company knocking other small wedge companies. Come on guys. Y’all can do better than this.

      Reply

      MyGolf Spy

      8 years ago

      I suppose that’s one interpretation, albeit one that lacks nuance of any kind. First, to call Bob a small wedge guy isn’t really fair. Before Solus and Regnegar Golf, he worked R&D for both Ben Hogan and Arnold Palmer when both were major players in the industry. His wedges have won 5 majors along with another 10+ victories in PGA tournaments. He has credentials, experience, and expertise that the garage tinkerers don’t have. The simplistic view, I believe is that Bob is picking on the little guy. In reality Bob is calling out guys who don’t really know much at all about golf club engineering, R&D, design, materials, etc., but are nevertheless taking money from consumers for products that simply don’t measure up. You don’t get a pass for selling inferior gear, just because you’re a small company. – TC

      Reply

      Jeff

      8 years ago

      BTW–what’s going on with Bob’s old company? Tried to order a wedge and got an email back saying “WE are not selling any product until we resolve some legal issues.”

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      Chapter 7 bankruptcy from what we gather. Inventory and what not likely tied up until things get resolved. Will be interesting to see what becomes of the patent for the sole design.

      Josh Jeffers

      8 years ago

      When I donated money to your Crowd funded campaign, I was under the impression that it was going to be unbiased testing and info shared to us. I see your points. I do. But I don’t think that having a guy who gets paid for selling his wedges, write an article about what wedges to buy, is unbiased. I appreciate what you all do and I really read A LOT of what comes out. But try to keep it unbiased. It would be like an-unbiased teaching company having Jim Hardy, or Hank Haney write an article for them. CLEARLY they would make points based on what they believe and what would be best for them.

      Just my two cents. Thanks for reading.

      Reply

      MyGolf Spy

      8 years ago

      Josh – We took donations like yours and we built that the test facility we said we would. We expect to release the results of our first big test conducted in that facility next week…week after at the absolute latest.

      As a course of business we sometimes accept and even solicit articles from knowledgeable individuals from within in the golf industry. We’ve published a few articles from one of the guys at PING, and have a few more of those in the pipeline. We’ve offered similar opportunities to others in the industry. It’s not about promoting products, it’s about sharing knowledge, information, and in some cases, opinions. As it relates to Bob specifically, Bob sold Renegar Golf over a year ago, so he doesn’t actually sell wedges at this point. -TC

      Reply

      Ryan Finch

      8 years ago

      Josh no they aren’t.

      Reply

      Golfwhiler

      8 years ago

      Getting custom fit once you have had a chance to hit a lot of clubs evaluating with your eyes, touch, and radar scope has proven results for my game. It is not so easy just to pick X, Y, versus Z brand or this design over that design.

      E.g., I switched from a high MOI mallet putter to a blade putter and lowered my strokes. Maybe I am less sloppy with the blade. Perhaps my blade is easier to line up over the mallets I have used. Maybe the blade is better for my stroke. What “should be” because of theoretical physics and “what is” in final club design and user interface do not always align.

      Reply

      Andy W

      8 years ago

      The high MOI only helps when there is a mishit, meaning contact is NOT on the putter’s sweetspot which is about the size of a dime. High MOI does this by getting the ball closer to your target than if did the same mishit with a bullseye. But if the putt is hit in the sweetspot, the bullseye is the most accurate putter there is.

      Reply

      Dave Hughes

      8 years ago

      Likely lotsa truth here on a broad scale. As a putter”designer” with nearly 40 years under my belt, I’ve been flattered by Cameron replicating my designs at least twice. No mfr is consistently putting out effective working models, only effective sellers. My”work” has been driven by my consistently inconsistent putting skills, so has led down many avenues. Bottom line, bad putters will always search and tinker for the “magic” club! :)

      Reply

      Chris Guynn

      8 years ago

      I was just commenting to a friend the other day about how so many PGA players still use the basic Ping Anser style “blade” putter, and putt very well with it. Speith, Fowler, Rory, Tiger, Stricker, DJ just to name a few. Obviously there’s others using mallet and some of the more modern high MOI putters as well, but the best putters in the game seem to stick with the old school, lower MOI blade. Is it becase that’s what they grew up playing? This high MOI and radical head design movement is only a few years old really. So perhaps they’re so used to playing that style putter, which is why they’ve become so proficient. It would be fun to make all of those names I listed switch to some kind of larger, mallet style putter for a couple months, and measure their performance.

      Reply

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      It’s an interesting question. In his day, Tiger was such a good putter he probably could have putted with anything. Fowler is 34th in strokes gained, Rory around 50, so there’s room for improvement there. DJ…probably not as bad as people think, but certainly you can make a case for switching putters.

      I also think it’s important to distinguish between professional (extremely consistent) and amateurs who work the entire face of a putter. MOI is almost certainly more relevant to the average golfer. As is properly applied groove technology. The stuff about getting the ball rolling faster…there’s no proof that’s of any benefit (it sounds good though), but the idea of using variable depth grooves to create a more consistent face…there’s value in that for sure.

      All of that said, a good bit of what gets played has to do with comfort level. You still have a handful of the top guys playing blades despite a majority moving away from them. Personally, I’m less convinced mallets are for everyone, but I think a bit of that probably has to do with the majority of mallets being face balanced. Mallets fit to the stroke type of the golfer make plenty of sense, I think.

      Reply

      Kenny B

      8 years ago

      “Obviously there’s others using mallet and some of the more modern high MOI putters as well, but the best putters in the game seem to stick with the old school, lower MOI blade. ”

      Whose the #1 player in the world? Whose the #1 player in strokes gained putting? Jason Day, and yes he is using a high MOI putter. Why do most longer putters have high MOI heads? Because a longer lever benefits from that type of head. Why do many Champions Tour players use a high MOI head? Because they have been around the block and it works. It all depends on what feels the best with the putting stroke you have.

      BTW, I use a face-balanced blade putter.

      Reply

      Chris Embardino

      8 years ago

      “everything that’s not like my product is wrong and is lying to you” “there is no such thing as a proper fit and everyone should play one product – the one just like the one i make”. There i saved you reading.

      Reply

      MyGolf Spy

      8 years ago

      Instead of trying to save others time, perhaps you should go back and re-read the article. You apparently missed quite a bit and settled on a conclusion that didn’t actually exist.

      Reply

      Kirby Oaks

      8 years ago

      I believe putters, just like a putting stroke, is much about preference, feel and confidence. It is a club that you should try out and even get fitted for. A mallet putter is not for everyone, just like the putters shaft length or lie.

      Reply

      Shanne Banks

      8 years ago

      I call bullshit! Just bought the new SM6 Vokeys and they r the best on the block. Enjoy ur inferior equipment….

      Reply

      Steve S.

      8 years ago

      Best part about these articles is that it gets you to think about the science of golf, whether you agree with Mr Renegar’s conclusions or not. As a retired engineer I spent my life looking at data and used that data to verify and improve my work. So anything that results in more unbiased data to improve my game I’m all for. I also know that the same data can result in different design approaches for different problems BECAUSE very rarely does the data point to one OVERWHELMING “right” answer. If it did, there would be no need for engineers all design would be designed by statisticians.

      I always love that saying; “there are lies, damned lies and statistics”. Data is only useful when it is evaluated with an unbiased eye. Tough to do for must humans.

      Reply

      Jerry

      8 years ago

      Tony- Thanks for your reply. I think you can sense my frustration along with many who follow MGS. Golf testing needs to rise above alchemy and get objective. Even the golf industry itself is tired of anecdotal BS. Surely if robots can’t tell us something (anything) are we left to another decade of misleading advertising, Pro endorsements and MGS readers chiming in with their stories of a guy they know from Walmart who always hits 300 yd drives and makes every putt from 15′. If robots aren’t the answer what about taking 10 golfers hitting top balls, labels covered, 10 shots each over 1, 2, 3 days and show results? Then we could see results and make some judgements. Not scientific enough? Use 20-30 golfers. At some point like drug trials results emerge. I’ve seen test panels done by magazines and even MGS but there’s always too much subjectivity. Let’s take your response with your comment on TM. “What if” you took the M2 driver and a robot and hit ProV1’s and Nike’s/Bridgestone’s/whatever’s and just tells us how far they went with Dispursion, spin rate, ballspeed etc. If it turned out a $30/doz ball performed as well as the $45/doz ball that would be newsworthy. In short Tony, there has to be some way we can evaluate stuff aside from Fritz from Sheboygan who lowered his handicap 10 strokes by spraying his balls with Teflon. Think about that one.

      Reply

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      Jerry – obviously there comes a point where you, me, we…can’t test everything. We laugh out loud at the thought that some cram the totality of a “driver test” into a single day when it takes us literal weeks to get through it. When you use 20 testers, have everyone hit the same clubs, adequately plan for fatigue, remove outliers, and still ensure adequate sample sizes for each tester with all the clubs in your test (in our case 28), well…it takes real time. We average just about 6 hours per tester total time.

      We use a single ball as constant…imagine if we repeated the entire test with 4 or 5 different balls? We’d publish 2016 results sometime in 2018.

      The total performance answer is always to go get fitted…and get fitted by a guy whose not heavily invested in a single brand. Somebody who can offer you a handful of brands (if not more) and a collection of shafts. And yeah…get fitted with the ball you’re most likely to play on the golf course.

      As for subjective reviews…I do think they have their place (at the risk of shameless self-promotion, I think my PM Grind wedge review is a solid example), but we believe the value doesn’t come from Fritz in Sheboygan loving a club, it comes from his data and how that data can be used to provide recommendations for off-the-rack shoppers.

      We do several types of data-driven reviews. Obviously we have big head to head tests. We sometimes take specific claims and try to validate or disprove them, and sometimes we just try and get a general picture of what a club might do. With enough data we think we can make intelligent and accurate recommendations to off-the-rack buyers (provided that buyer knows something about his swing…the more the better). Ultimately, performance will vary significantly (our last place driver this year is/was #1 for at least one tester). We can narrow the parameters to explain why, and we can use that knowledge to help golfers identify what will work for them, but at the end of the day…whatever the claims, the best answer is always to get fitted.

      Reply

      Jerry

      8 years ago

      Good response Tony. I’m arguing because I started a golf company several years ago with the goal of improving the golf swing. By using gyro’s in a very unique way we are attempting to eliminate anecdotal data that analyzers use with extremely accurate data that users can program new and improved swings with. Not trying to self promote here because we aren’t selling anything. What we are trying to develop relies on accuracy. Drug companies must pass vigorous testing and post results. Even then we know they exaggerate claims and some later withdraw their products after failing real world sales. Yes testing is complex and doesn’t always give you the answers you want. I’ve blogged before that all golfers should trial stuff before they buy. Test your current driver against the new stuff in a decent hitting bay. Same for balls and irons. Wedges are an outlier as are putters. They both require time on the course and usually you gotta buy em first which complicates things. With regard to our company’s product, we have Scientists with PhD’s who have measured stuff on distant planets with telemetry on orbiting satellites and designed gyro related components on vertical takeoff aircraft for the Navy. We are trying to bring a bit of this science to a simple golf device. Our attitude is that no one will believe you unless you deliver accurate results. Your swing can improve but only if the data you use to attempt change is accurate and reliable.

      Rob Hoyle

      8 years ago

      I wonder if Bettinardi is a garage tinkerer?

      As far as the wedges go, last week I switched from a custom ground set of wedges made by a “master craftsman” for a now defunct company who got their start making wedges to a set of SM6s and I can’t believe what I have been missing. These Vokeys are really incredible. I feel like I have so many more shots that I can easily pull off where as before I struggled to get it done.

      Reply

      Michael Woods

      8 years ago

      Haha I think bombtech fits all of this

      Reply

      The Oracle

      8 years ago

      A challenging piece and a good read, however there is one fundamental fact that has been overlooked.

      To find the next best thing, to unlock the next secret, to be better, is what all pros and all companies – regardless of size – are genuinely striving for. And the chances are that those with the greatest resources will get there first – historically that holds true. Look at any sport and take F1 as a good example. Big budget teams almost always beat the lesser budget teams, because they have the time, money and resources to explore more angles, more technology more often. Added to that you have the leading pros of the world working hand in glove with their manufacturers to find that edge.

      Now unless all those big companies are putting one over us and holding back (as this article is implying) then the odds are you will get better products from the bigger makers at a much better price. Sure a boutique winery can make a great drop but you sure as hell pay for it.

      The arguments surrounding the high priced names ie Bettinardi, Cameron etc come down to marketing pure and simple. Whack a high price on it and people will buy it for bragging rights. Why on earth would you buy Callaway Legacy clubs for example other than for your ego. I don’t decry that, I’m guilty of it too.

      It seems to me that the whole article is setting itself up on the premise that we are being somehow hoodwinked by the big guys or being sold ill-conceived products by the garage tinkerers – despite the author having been one.

      To me, that premise just fails to hold water and is not much shy of click bait. I’m docking you 10 points Golf Spy, on what has otherwise been a good performance this year. You pride yourself on bias-free reporting based upon the data and the facts then publish an opinion piece with absolutely no substantive data, written by a man who obviously has an axe to grind. Not to mention a wedge.

      Reply

      Mike Dobrea

      8 years ago

      Mr. Renegar
      I would love to know your opinion of the system for objective measurement of a golf clubs playability devised by Ralph Maltby and called the “Maltby Playability Factor. I believe in that system of measurement and it seems to be a true objective way to sort through the marketing hype of golf companies by actually using center of gravity (horizontal and vertical), MOI, blade length, etc. and coming up with an objective number reflective of those measurements describing a clubs “ease of use ” if you will.
      It seems that any club maker would do well to measure and use these parameters while designing clubs.
      What do you think of this system?
      Regards,
      Mike D.

      Reply

      Hungry Hustler

      8 years ago

      Tony, Thanks for keeping things on track.

      Reply

      Paul Kerin

      8 years ago

      I call bs on this article!

      Reply

      Ryan Finch

      8 years ago

      Yeah I like the mindset of if you don’t work for an oem you don’t know anything. Or the if it’s not a high moi putter it’s bad.

      Reply

      golfzilla

      8 years ago

      Show me the data indeed. With the exception of MyGolfSpy’s actual human testing, I saw no confirmable data in this article. I’m not saying that the author is wrong, but prove it.

      Reply

      Jerry

      8 years ago

      Let’s talk MOI for a moment (no pun intended). When these terms are thrown out everyone assumes “oooo MOI good”. But much like the “blade vs perimeter weighted iron” you have to consider if you want feedback as part of your learning. If your putter torques on off-center putts maybe some think that’s a good thing. If every club self corrects for a bad swing any swing will work. Is that where we want to go? I play blade and combo irons and if I miss hit them I know instantly and concentrate on hitting my next shot more squarely. Same for putts. Would I really want to practice routinely hitting putts off center? Every club in your bag has a sweet spot. Some have a slightly larger spot than others but getting feedback through “feel” is pretty key to learning a good swing.

      Reply

      Daymon Johnson

      8 years ago

      Umm, yeah……I’ll put my Edel wedges against anything on the market, including the wedges from Renegar, Titleist, Ping, etc… Give me one of theirs and I’m willing to be that 9.9 times out of 10 my wedges perform better… I tried yours, and respectfully, they were a distant competitor in the whole scheme for me.

      And putters…feel is part of it, but consistency is everything, so again, give me your fanciest putter. Whatever one you think is the best, Mr. Renegar – and I’ll make the same bet about my Low Tide putter OR my Edel putter. Both are amongst the finest I’ve ever used. One comes from a garage tinkerer, in Low Tide. One comes from a small company, in Edel. Both better than anything else I’ve tried.

      This series of articles, to me anyway, displays your Inability to have an unbiased view. You’re calling BS on all of the smaller guys, I’m calling BS on you. Dazzle us with technical BS all you want. But, from experince, i van tell you emphatically some of the best clubs I’ve played come from smaller companies…..

      Reply

      Justin

      8 years ago

      It is rather interesting, considering the site he’s writing for has stated numerous times about being for the “little guys”. Lately, it’s just been shilling for the “big (pockets) boys” Kinda interested in what the likes of MannKrafted and Nead- two longtime forum members- think about this.

      Reply

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      Telling people things they don’t want to hear isn’t shilling. Look again, Justin…still ZERO ads from the big company. Total objectivity, unbiased coverage works both ways. We don’t hold the little guys to a weaker standard. If the products match up, great, but in 6 years of club testing, the little guy products that legitimately hold their own against the small guys are few and far between.

      Here’s the reality…there are a few really good products from little guys, but mostly its smoke and mirrors; a great story…David vs. Goliath with often very little performance to actually back it up. We have and will always give the little guy a chance, but a chance isn’t the same as a free pass.

      People want to believe in the unicorns, but that doesn’t make them any more real.

      Brad Taylor

      8 years ago

      Stroke person to person is much different. I’m sure it would take me a year to get over my arc and run a mallet. But I need an arc, as do other people.
      Although I do agree that some putters (bettinardi, piretti, etc) are well overpriced. And don’t agree with the wedge grind stuff either. If the player knows what he needs around the greens or in a fairway from his or her wedge, options are beneficial.

      Reply

      David Ball

      8 years ago

      Wasn’t Karsten Solheim a “garage tinkerer” when he revolutionized the putter and founded PING? Those darn “garage tinkerers” with their inferior products…lol.

      Reply

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      Karsten was an engineer who loved golf. Not your average garage tinkerer. And while he hit about the putter design on which so many are based, it’s equally as true that some of his theories/ideas what have you, haven’t exactly stood the test of time.

      Reply

      Teletext

      8 years ago

      Tony, It is interesting that two British scientists, John Stobbs and Alistair Cochran with their excellent book, The Search for the Perfect Golf Swing, did an analysis of putters and came up with they believed was the scientifically “perfect” putter only to find out that this guy in Scottsdale was already making them. Yes Karsten beat them to it. They give high praise to him and his work. The book is a must read to anyone serious about this great game.

      robin

      8 years ago

      I known Wilson staff putters are designed for what type of Arc you have for $99.99 and balanced . I think people just buy the wrong putter for their style of Arc…But I still want a Ringo.

      Reply

      Duncan Castles

      8 years ago

      Another bizarre article. I’ve no doubt there are ‘garage tinkerers’ out there selling snake oil, but the technological examples the author gives are all of design attributes that OEM companies routinely deploy in their own designs – grooved faces, non-mallet putters, heavy hosels. And his three tier categorisation of golf companies still has the same obvious problems as in parts one and two.

      Reply

      peter collins

      8 years ago

      So is it only the big boys who are allowed to suck your £££ out of your wallet.
      I fell for the Callaway PM Grind Wedges, can’t use them and i do not know, of anyone who can. The resale value also halved overnight, i presume no run of the mill player can use them.

      Reply

      Daniel Bratlie

      8 years ago

      I love my 56 PM, cant find anything better to take it out of my bag for sure.

      Reply

      PJB029

      8 years ago

      Just because you cant hit them does not mean the wedges suck and if you are talking about trade or resale value you must not do much research because ALL clubs lose 1/2 their value or more after a person leaves the store and plays with them so it might be in your best interest to look at PGA value guide or or go to your local golf store and try to make a trade to find out what really happens cause what you say what happens and what actually happens is not the same

      Reply

      Chal

      8 years ago

      I have a 64 PM grind that I love. It is versatile and a great club.

      Reply

      RAT

      8 years ago

      I have been to a major mfg’S R&D facility(WilsonStaff) a few years back and was very impressed with the way they were testing future designs of various wedge heads. They were tuning the sweet spot , cg etc.of different heads along with many different groove designs .This was done with science and actual striking test using Iron-Byron. The electronics attached to the head was awesome! By using such technology could only greatly improve performance because it is measureable and predictable . This is already visible in their 2016 offering in the wedge arena.

      Reply

      Andy W

      8 years ago

      Let me speak as one of the little guys that WILL “….deliver to you a better performing golf club (putter) that will give you lower scores,…” And it’s Proven & Supported & thus Guaranteed! P&SI-EGOS.
      So to quote, “If it really made a difference, no one would play anything BUT …it… competitively, and the performance improvement would be obvious to all of us with lower scores and handicaps and finite quantitative measurements.” That WILL happen, but not overnight because like your co-contributor Mr. Adams points out, the putter has to be seen on TV where Pros have 14-club deals that discourage even looking at other clubs. But since it absolutely lowers scores & handicaps, it’s just a matter of time. Yet, I would be thrilled and welcoming of your critique.

      Reply

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      Andy – You really need to stop using any post that mentions a putter as an opportunity to advertise your product. It’s great that you believe in your work, but as I recall, it didn’t perform well in our tests.

      Lack of pro usage because of pay for play is a great excuse, and while there is some validity to it, the overwhelming majority of pros do NOT have 14 club deals. Generally speaking only Nike demands the full bag. Most have one to four free spots in the bag. Most of those spots are for putters and wedges. Some guys even have the flexibility to play whatever the way regardless of their primary sponsor.

      As a matter of fact, Odyssey is one of the most popular putters on tour (if not THE most popular), and the majority of golfers who use Odyssey putters aren’t paid to do so.

      If you were selling a driver or a set of irons you’d be on a bit firmer ground, but there are plenty of tour opportunities with the putter…even for guys who don’t pay.

      Do you even have a tour rep?

      So let’s be honest, it’s a hurdle, not a limitation. As Bob mentioned, despite never paying anyone to play his wedges, his product has been in the bag for 5 major victories along with another 10 or so wins. It’s a pretty simple equation, if a pro believes he can win more because of a club than he’ll get paid to play another one, he’s going to do it. The fact is there are handfuls of clubs in play every week that weren’t paid for.

      Reply

      Steve

      8 years ago

      I have Renegar wedges that perform great. Based on this article by Bob Renegar, I may never have purchased them. How can you tell when a non large OEM company has a good product?

      Reply

      Barney Boom

      8 years ago

      Just my 2 cents here. The industry isn’t forcing anyone to buy new equipment. If you want/can afford the latest wedge or putter – buy it. Does everyone complain when a new car comes out that’s identical to the previous model but with some refinements to the infotainment system and new light cluster?. Call me a fool but I work hard, provide for my family – so when the new Garage Tinkerers wedge comes out and my current wedge is worse for wear – Damn sure I’m gonna buy it. Does anyone suggest I carry on with my worn out 60 Deg?

      Reply

      Jason Pohl

      8 years ago

      Pretty sure the some of the companies the author has worked for could be classified as small tinkerers. Solus and renegar

      Reply

      Tatsuro Oshimoto

      8 years ago

      Interesting

      Reply

      Lou

      8 years ago

      Wow that’s a lot of information to take in. A couple of things, since he is or was part of renegar is he essentially putting down his own company? Secondly I’ve tried putting with mallets in the past and my current putter (Odyssey metal x #6) has given me fantastic results and better results than any mallet so…. where is the evidence to this claim?

      Reply

      Gisle Solhaug

      8 years ago

      I like your article. But, I do think that the problems you raise apply just as much to Tier 1 and Tier 2 manufacturers. The larger manufacturers only care about the bottom line, not your score. The only thing that is high tech in golf is marketing. Golfers are easily misled by marketing.

      Reply

      peter collins

      8 years ago

      Spot on Gisle

      Reply

      Bryan Kloss

      8 years ago

      How can you say mallet putters will perform better than “blade style” putters every time when there has been data backing up that one can be better for a golfer (at any handicap) based on the stroke arc they have?

      Reply

      MyGolf Spy

      8 years ago

      Our putters tests have proved this to be true over the past couple years of in-depth testing.

      Reply

      Ryan Holcomb

      8 years ago

      MyGolf Spy the author is partially wrong about MOI.
      We are told MOI refers to twisting at impact, but the bigger picture is that MOI also resists or promotes twisting through the entire stroke. Some people need that twisting to get the face aligned best for them.

      His research is typical for golf where people just repeat the same study over and over and not think about new ways to test.

      Bruce Rearick has the research for MOI where it counts.

      For example, Tiger’s 2000 putting stroke required a lot of face closure – anser style, thin grip, offset shaft, low moi. A very natural for him stroke. Draw like motion.

      Rory requires much more MOI. Still using an anser style, but he is forced to hold off head release/twist/MOI by making a fade style release in his putting stroke.

      Both are pretty good, but one worked with the putter design and the other fights it.

      Reply

      Bruce Rearick

      8 years ago

      Thanks Ryan. As you clearly said. There is a rotational requirement for every putting stroke, and a rotational value for every putter. MOI does not help you square the putter.

      Reply

      Brett Viboch

      8 years ago

      Bruce Rearick I don’t mean to come across as most people on the internet trying to have a good discussion of different views, but do you have data or studies to support your theory that MOI does not help one square the putter? I am always open to new ideas and learning more…I have worked in R&D in Carlsbad for a major OEM, and in our findings, MOI will definitely help a putter maintain a square club face throughout the stroke, regardless of impact with an object

      Reply

      Gisle Solhaug

      8 years ago

      Brett, I think the answer is in your question. MOI will definitely help a putter MAINTAIN a square club face throughout the stroke, regardless of impact with an object. But MOI does not help you SQUARE the putter. That is, high MOI will resist squaring the putter face back to square if you open the face in the backstroke. Therefore, putter heads with large MOI are suitable for golfers with a straight back and straight through putting stroke.

      Bob Pegram

      8 years ago

      Gisle –
      You just hit the nail on the head. Straight back and straight through putting strokes work much better with a face-balanced putter (usually high MOI). Rotational putting strokes – like a door opening and closing – work much better with a toe down putter (usually low MOI).
      Also the amount of “toe down” can vary – some balance with the toe straight down, some at 45 degrees, etc. – some people put a little like a door opening and closing (45 degrees toe down?), some a lot (full 90 degree toe down).
      That is why trying a putter before buying is so important. Buying on the internet, unless you can tell which the putter is, is a gamble.

      Bryan Kloss

      8 years ago

      MyGolf Spy do your tests control for the players arc when putting? Didn’t mean to put you on the defense. Was asking a genuine question.

      Reply

      Bruce Rearick

      8 years ago

      Brett. Yes. Part of the team that brought Puttlab to the United States. 10 years of Puttlab results including preliminary work from the Germans. Does a high moi putter want to swing with low rotation. Sure. But what if the players set up, posture, or sequence of motion demands higher rotation. Who wins the fight between the putter and the player.

      Reply

      Ryan Holcomb

      8 years ago

      Gawd I love this stuff

      Reply

      Ryan Holcomb

      8 years ago

      Mygolfspy,
      What are the controls for you putter testing experiments? Do you measure all the various arc types with face delivery angles? If you have a group of testers with similar strokes they will all test with similar results not accounting for those with different strokes.

      Reply

      Donovan Childers

      8 years ago

      I guess if Mgs believes this article is completely true, then they might want to pull their story about Tyson Lamb. He must not be the next great, but nothing more than a tinkerer producing 50 year old designs? Hell Cameron just tinkers according to the article.

      Reply

      Ryan Finch

      8 years ago

      They just hand putters out and see what happens. No fitting, no adjustment. It’s luck of the draw. That’s why most don’t really care about the test.

      Reply

      MyGolf Spy

      8 years ago

      Donovan Childers Point to where we said that Tyson Lamb produces putters that offer performance to match the PING Ketsch or others that have tested well for us? You apparently read something that wasn’t there – linked two unlike things together (fairly common these days), and so as you can imagine, we’ll retract nothing. We said (and maintain) that Tyson is the next Scotty Cameron. Read whatever you like into that as far as the performance implications are concerned.

      What I personally think, Tyson is not unlike James Patrick. He’s a supremely talented craftsman who knows how to make a sexy product, but probably hasn’t mastered the performance…the golf aspects of what he does. It shouldn’t surprise anyone who actually knows much of anything that Titleist has squirreled JP away for the last several years, having him work under Voke to basically learn the other side of it.

      So when I reached out to an OEM friend whose company happens to have a guy who I think is one of the best putter guys in the biz about Tyson I suggested they may want to consider the same. He’s a talented machinist. Paired with a guy who can teach him the other side (the performance side), he’d be a force. Either way…the putter hos buy for art anyway, so he’ll be fine regardless.

      The difference between Tyson and the average garage tinkerer is that – apart from the fact that Tyson is more talented than most – if he wants it, he’ll have the opportunity to learn the performance side. The average garage guy never will. -TC

      Reply

      MyGolf Spy

      8 years ago

      Ryan Finch For a guy who isn’t part of our test you seem to know a lot about it…or nothing as the case may be. You’re more than welcome to visit the test facility and see how we actually do things.

      Reply

      Ryan Finch

      8 years ago

      You buy the ticket. When you have a tester test 2 different styles that fit 2 different strokes how are you getting objective data? One will fit him better and he’ll preform better with. That doesn’t mean that it fits everyone better.

      Reply

      MyGolf Spy

      8 years ago

      Ryan Holcomb I suppose that might be true if MOI was the only aspect of putter design. Face milling/grooves, loft, alignment, weight…it all plays a role in total performance – and I’d expect you’d know this. To answer what I’m not convinced was supposed to be an actual question, yes, we do presort or putter groups based on the arc type (toe hang) of the putter. One of the things that’s proven true time and time again during testing is that anything that is significantly different will standout (sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse), so as much as we can, we test like items together – and yet still see tremendous performance variations within the individual groups.

      Reply

      MyGolf Spy

      8 years ago

      Yes, Bruce, we do name an overall best putter. That’s defined as the putter that provides, on average, the best among the testing pool. While it’s not an absolute, the tendency is that it’s also the putter that performs the best for highest number of testers. That said, there’s no expectation on our part that it will be the putter that performs best for everyone. Our recommendation is always that golfers go get fitted, but we also know it’s a tremendously small number of testers who actually will get fit, so ultimately we’re looking to identify the clubs that will give golfers who choose not to get fit (the overwhelming majority of golfers) the best chance for success.

      Reply

      Todd Marquez

      8 years ago

      What works best is what looks best to the individual. I’ve fit thousands of players when I worked in the industry and I can say with 100% certainly there is no best putter. Anyone who thinks different is on a payroll somewhere

      Reply

      Jon Wesley Robinson

      8 years ago

      I go back and forth between putters.. I’ll use a Cleveland belly putter held away from my body, and switch to an old T.P. Mills spalding blade putter.. It doesn’t really matter to me.. Two completely different strokes, and I can fill it up with either… You either can putt or you can’t… No putter is gonna change that, period….

      Reply

      Jon Wesley Robinson

      8 years ago

      I also use a Wilson 8802, and I can get super hot with that thing on fast greens…

      Reply

      James T.

      8 years ago

      Sounds like Bob has a wedge to grind. Or an axe to grind. :) Seriously, he is spot on and I agree with him.

      Reply

      Justin

      8 years ago

      He needs to stick to wedges as he is off base as far as the putters go!

      Reply

      Jerry

      8 years ago

      I don’t suppose I am much different than a lot of golfers my age or handicap. I still have an old Scotty Cameron design putter (Futura) that Phil used on tour some years ago. I don’t love or worship it but am frankly “used to it” and find it is consistent enough to suit my game. My attitude towards clubs, drivers for instance is similar. Every season I take my 4 yr old driver into Golf Galaxy and challenge the salespeople and staff Pro to find me a better club. I hit several models of the hot driver(s) and we look at ball speed, distance, spin rate, etc and thus far I haven’t seen anything worth spending bucks on. A couple of years ago the Pro tried to get me into a 12 degree driver instead of my 9 degree older stick. “Hit it high” was all the rage. First off, a 12 degree driver looks goofy and second my 9 degree went further. Now, having said all this I am very open to change and would switch clubs or balls in a heartbeat if they improved my game. Any sane golfer would. But until manufacturers start testing with good data that proves their claims I have to rely on my small sample anecdotal self-testing. For example, how about hitting balls with an Iron Byron and vary the swing speed to test various balls? How hard could that be? Let the machine hit a hundred ProV1’s vs the top Bridgestone/Nike/Cally balls first at 120 mph then 115, then 110 and so on. Then hit irons and see what Carries and spins best. Is there some law that says you can’t do that? Even if the machine testing testing doesn’t represent human testing it would show some data golfers could use.

      Reply

      Jason Geraci

      8 years ago

      Hey Jerry,

      Thank you for your comments. I appreciate consumers that only purchase when it translates to better scores.

      If you are ever in Nashville, stop by Golfsmith. I would love to work with you to see if we can improve your game.

      Cheers

      Reply

      John Cooper

      8 years ago

      Jerry, best comment I have seen here.

      Reply

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      Jerry – people love the robots, but no, they really don’t tell you much from a performance perspective. To many variables with humans that are next to impossible to recreate. Not sure if you saw it, but Edwin Watts tried robot testing performance a few years ago…9 point test. Unfortunately the drivers that the results showed were the best didn’t hold up to consumer scrutiny. We were certainly intrigued, but also found that the robot’s best didn’t come close to rising to the top.

      FWIW – TaylorMade just released a claim based on robot testing that says that M2 fairway is 13.1 yards longer than RBZ. Maybe we should all rush out to buy one. Although, it should be noted that the claim is based on “tour player speed”, and TaylorMade has not responded to our requests for additional information about the other conditions of its test. Point is, unlike humans, the robot can be configured to create ideal impact conditions for a given club.

      Reply

      Rod_cccgolfusa

      8 years ago

      If there were one perfect wedge design, no doubt Bob would have invented it by now. As a fitter and wedge grinder, I find that the most important part of custom fitting and design is the player interview. The player’s home course conditions and his short game priorities greatly influence the fit and the portability of a wedge.

      Reply

      NJV

      8 years ago

      I am not sure about what is going on in this article and who he is actually calling out but I know this…. my Scotty Cameron putter feels better than any other putter I have used. Including Odyssey and PING. There is something to be said about the feeling (feedback) you get from those deep milled putters. I could care less about the price. We are talking about a couple hundred dollars on a piece of equipment that you will probably use for the next 5 years. I am not saying that there are not gimmicks out there but the proof is actually in your hands when you are at Golftown hitting 3 or 4 different putters. Seeing the credentials of the man writing this article makes me think he knows way more than me but no one can tell me what I feel and the decision I made sits fine with me.

      Reply

      Joe Mama

      8 years ago

      You could or could not care less? If you could, then you do have some level of caring about the cost of a Scott.

      Reply

      Justin

      8 years ago

      To say that mallets will always outperform blade style putters is borderline reckless. The “feel” you get from a quality milled blade can never be matched by a mallet. I’ve tried many times to switch to a mallet, but have found my distance control suffers mightily. And yes, I’ve given it time to see if it simply needed getting used to… But no luck.
      This whole article seems one big crying baby spewing tears. This article isn’t controversial at all, it’s one man trying to regain notoriety after his wedge company went under. Have some respect for the up-and-comers man, you’re verbiage is embarrassing at times. I’m sure you were a “master” craftsman right out of the gate right? The bottom line is that people will only buy what actually works for them and you have simply forgot the most important aspect of putting… Your mind! Give me a beautiful putter and I’m in the right mindset to get the job done. I’m sure some people can play with ugly clubs, but I doubt most better players who cares out the game can. Do you think 30 handicaps who golf a few times a year are buying these “garage” putters??? I’m gonna have to stop writing soon because the further I get along in this response, the more I realize you are a bitter old man with misguided thoughts.
      I’m trying to remember who won the MGS most wanted blade putter (finished 2nd overall) last year… Oh that’s right, it was the Carbon Ringo 1/4! Are they a major OEM? Is their technology up to date? Have you ever picked up one of these putters to be able to speak about them in generalities. Haha, I haven’t even touched on green speed being a factor in putter selection. If all you have to do is spew hatred toward people “lower” than you to be able to get an article published on MGS, I could get one published every day. MGS backs smaller companies for their craftsmanship, and now they run an article that completely undermines their whole premise?? Good job! Way to go!!!

      Reply

      Justin

      8 years ago

      And sorry, I didn’t mean to write “went under” like they are out of business, but more like never caught on like you had hoped. I’ll be the first to say I liked the 1 renegar wedge I tried, so this review was mostly about you being completely off base in the putter world. Just wanted to clarify things before people went nuts.

      Reply

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      Think what you will about Bob – although I’ll toss in that I’ve never found him to be the least bit bitter. I also wouldn’t call sharing his opinions (based on decades in the golf industry) as spewing hate.

      That said…regarding “feel”, “looks” and other subjective things…we’ve done some research in the past, and continue to ask for subjective feedback when we do our putter testing. Thus far we have found absolutely zero correlation with what our testers say are the putters that look and/or feel good, and what actually performs the best in their hands.

      Regarding the mallet vs. blade statement in the article. I’ll admit, I was taken aback when I first read it, and then I went back through out putters tests, and while as you might expect, some blades out performed some mallets, it’s unlikely coincidental that the best mallet in our tests has consistently outperformed the best blades.

      Given the rampant insults and name-calling in your post, I’d suggest it’s possible that you might be a bit bitter and angry yourself.

      Reply

      Justin

      8 years ago

      Tony, this is why I don’t like responding to articles right after I read them. Words are useless without the emotion of sound. If Bob had released a video, I might have thought differently about it. I get that some people write articles and others release videos, but to me the tone in his article seemed a bit “holier-than-thou.” Again, tome in written word is perceived rather than written in stone, but that’s why we have our opinions!
      I agree that the Ping Ketsch is an amazing putter, but I have a hard time paying more than $200 for something I don’t think “looks” like it should cost more than $200. I’ll pay $275 for a Carbon putter all day, they are amazing and look like they should cost even more. Once again we’re talking about perception, but that’s the most important thing here… “To each his own as long as you don’t own each”

      Golfzilla70

      8 years ago

      Put me in the category of liking the blades better. I had been putting with an old Ping Pal I got back in the late 80’s, and a couple of years ago I was at Golf Galaxy and just loved the way a used Taylormade Ghost Spider looked, felt, and set-up. so I bought that club, and played it for about one year. My own findings for the course of that year: Loved it on shorter putts (inside of 10′) but hated it on longer putts (like 25′ and longer). I found that the harder I had to putt it (longer backswing or whatever method you want to call a putting stroke) the more I had a tendency to sort of “scrub” the ground behind the ball (the length of the mallet from the face to the back end of it was always hard for me to overcome). I’m sure it’s my own faulty putting stroke, but I feel like I probably putt better than most weekend golfers, so I put that down, bought myself a new Ping Pal TR putter (because it looked like the one I had been playing for 30 years) and haven’t looked back. I love that one!

      Bob Renegar

      8 years ago

      “Bitter Old Man . . .” Are we at the point of hurling insults now because we cannot argue fact and design merit objectively and intelligently?

      Perhaps I am getting a little older, but I did nearly shoot my age (67) last year with 7 birdies for a 69 – not too bad for an old guy amateur who never plays or practices any more. And I was acquainted with (and led R&D for) and had dinner with both Arnold Palmer and Ben Hogan. And I have done scores of club designs for many different brands.

      My “loser” wedges have at least a handful of “majors” won and more than a couple dozen big Tour wins in the hands of marquis players (with NO pay for play incentives), so they speak for themselves pretty well – my sole design (NOT a “grind”) has been widely copied, and I hold the utility patent for it.

      But really who is to say my opinion is worth any more than yours?

      Herein, though, lies the reason I am so enthusiastic about where the MyGolfSpy guys are headed. They will in time provide all of us golf equipment consumers with objective, quantitative performance data that will tell us who is making the great golf clubs and who is selling you the BS. Just give them the time they need to get there.

      Bob Renegar

      Reply

      Bob Pegram

      8 years ago

      Bob –
      You said the following in the article, “What happens when that meticulously fitted high-bounce “digger grind” of yours encounters the need to play a lob shot from a tight lie? Or how about a bunker explosion from firm sand? We are not playing Bridge here, so you cannot just “pass” instead of playing that particular shot!?”

      I use Edel wedges that use the “digger grind” designation for their highest bounce wedges at each loft. My 60 degree wedge has a groove on the sole similar to yours. The groove design goes back to wedges from the 1930s. I am surprised your were able to get a patent on it. However, your groove is shaped slightly different than others.

      The design of the sole on my 60 degree Edel wedge has 27 degrees of effective bounce yet it is shaped in a way that allows me to hit the ball off of tight lies and even dirt without blading the ball. That contradicts your slam against Edel that I quoted above.

      In addition Edel has 8 different bounces at every loft from somewhere in the 40s to well over 60 degrees. Some people who don’t hit down on the ball as much need less bounce. The majority need the maximum bounce. You went after the golfers who need maximum bounce and ignored the rest. Edel can fit everybody even the ones you ignored.

      My wedge also works fine from firm sand. I just swing with less force – a shorter backswing. It works great. That defeats your other objection.

      Edel must be competing well against you for you to make that slam against them. :-)

      Bob Pegram

      8 years ago

      I forgot to mention that Edel has travelling custom fitters so a golfer can try each bounce under real playing conditions (an area with grass, traps, rough, etc.) to see which one works the best for them before buying. They also have lots of shafts that screw into the fitting heads so a golfer can get the shaft that works best for them.

      I get nothing from them. I just like their high quality wedges.

      Bob Renegar

      8 years ago

      Bob-

      I don’t recall mentioning Edel, and I don’t know of any wedges from the 1930’s with a groove in the sole, as Sarazen did not develop the modern sand wedge until the early 30’s (actually Howard Hughes probably had a lot to do with it). Sarazen was immediately aware of the playability limitations of his SAND wedge, so he (and Wilson) concurrently introduced a lesser bounce / lesser loft “pitching” wedge as a companion piece to do the other jobs in short game play. Ergo, the first “set of wedges”.

      Perhaps there was something I missed in the prior art. I am familiar with the MacGregor Dual wedge from the 50’s, though, that had a rounded slot in the sole and rounded bounce surfaces, but it did nothing to lower the leading edge for tight lies, and I have never seen anything written on what this dual wedge was supposedly doing from a design standpoint. I was not aware of its existence when I developed my sole design.

      In my experience, the USPTO is fairly hard to fool regarding prior art, and my patent is very specific about what it is and what it does. Perhaps you would find reading my patent (#7,393,286) very interesting – particularly in light of some of the wedges currently in the marketplace and what they claim they do.

      Excellence in wedge design nowadays in part requires situational performance versatility that most “custom grinds” will NOT deliver. That is the essence of what my sole design is all about.

      FYI, I don’t believe in “wedge fitting” for players one bit – wedges instead need to fit the design demands of the many different situations the player encounters . . . which is obviously very different. We have over the years provided wedges for many marquis PGA Tour players – NONE were fitted in the sense suggested by many of current wedge “fitters”.

      Bob Renegar

      Bob Pegram

      8 years ago

      You mentioned Edel indirectly because they a well known in some groups for their maximum bounce wedge with a “digger grind.” I have not seen anybody else use that terminology.

      Maybe the old rusted wedge I saw wasn’t as old as I thought or was told, but it was obviously a lot older (and smaller head size) than modern wedges. I don’t remember the brand. I remember the groove in the sole. The sole of the very old wedge did have a bigger bounce angle and so would be a problem in short grass. The portion of the sole to the rear of the groove was in line with the sole surface in front of the groove. Edel’s maximum bounce wedge is not configured that way. The portion to the rear of the groove does not protrude as far so blading the ball isn’t an issue. The front of the face will sit on the ground at address. I assume yours is the same in that way.

      Regarding getting fitted for a wedge, I saw a number of people getting fitted. At one point there were 3 of us fitted at one time. All three of us were clubfitters. Two of us used the maximum bounce wedge, however the third guy was better off with a bounce that was somewhat less. He tried the fitting wedges with the maximum bounce just out of curiosity and half-bladed the shot out of a trap. Shots from grass were equally bad due to excessive bounce for his swing and angle of approach. It convinced him of the fitting process. We couldn’t use the wedge that fit him because it dug too much for us. We needed the extra bounce because we had a steeper angle of attack.

      Roger Nielson

      8 years ago

      You’re the best Johnny Miller! I mean Bob Renegar. I’m sure a lot of the sponsors for mygolfspy.com appreciate your unbiased comments. I admire your relentless focus in the short game only. You’re the only garage tinkerer who could ever acquire an engineering designation, and shoot 69 (with 7 birdies).

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      What a perfect obnoxious response. Who doesn’t love a good ad hominem, I suppose. Bob’s credentials (and decades of experience in the equipment industry) speak for themselves. Do you actually have a contrary argument based on anything remotely grounded in facts, or are you just here to make child-like noise?

      mcavoy

      8 years ago

      Well if anyone knows an ad hominem attacks in this series its Bob.

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      Has he? I don’t believe so. He’s questioned budgets, expertise, and actual knowledge. All fair game given the subject matter. The majority of those who have disagreed have commented not with facts, or for the most part well-articulated opinion based on experience, but rather by calling him bitter or an idiot. When you can’t attack the argument attack the man, right? Facebook culture at its finest.

      mcavoy

      8 years ago

      Yes actually he has. When he shows a photo of a Hireko product and uses that as the sole physical example with which to paint all of his “tier 3” companies with a broad brush as incompetent garage tinkerers making stuff using inferior materials that’s pretty much a broad, ad hominem attack on everyone not in mainstream OEM. You chimed in in that discussion thread with a comment to the effect of “while we certainly respect Jeff’s work”….you can’t have it both ways – saying you respect someone’s work while allowing your blog writer to hold it up as an example of something to be avoided. And Facebook culture? You would know, I’m not on FB in any capacity.

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      “HE” didn’t show a photo of Hireko. We did…a mistake on our part, although even Hireko will admit their R&D can’t match big companies, and their products – as Jeff told us when we discussed the use of his photo – are for a different type of golfer. Basically guys on a budget.

      The rest of it…inferior materials, inferior foundries…dude…its’reality. I’m sorry if that’s hard for you to hear, hard for you to accept, but reality none the less.

      Big OEMs sell promise of more yards, and habitually overstate their performance claims, but the stuff holds up…it just doesn’t quite do what they say, but in our years of testing here, it beats the little guy every time. Small guys will have you believe they’ve stumbled on to the secret sauce, figured out something no R&D team ever has. The story is often that the stuff is just as good…better even, but there’s precious little to back it up, but for those who want to believe it’s the perfect sales pitch.

      Bob Renegar

      8 years ago

      Well said, Roger, but you forgot the part about me not being very tall either.

      I was probably also the only “garage tinkerer” ever to be on the Golf Digest Technical Panel and do design consulting with 2 of the 3 largest OEMs.

      I am inclined to answer your most thoughtful comments with a quote from Dizzy Dean who said, “It ain’t bragging’ if you can back it up!” Dizz did – so can I.

      Bob Renegar

      Roger Nielson

      8 years ago

      Bob,

      Just picked up your Solus wedge for $39.99 from Rock Bottom Golf – I am looking forward to try it out!

      I hope we don’t let Dizzy down!

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      Sick burn kid…

      You got taken though. The Rock Bottom Solus, is post Bob Renegar. Not his work, but good luck with it anyway.

      john

      8 years ago

      I will say BS to a lot of your prejudiced comments
      I will stick with my Wishon irons and wedges as long as they are available. They are far better than the junk I have seen on shelves and in my friends bags.
      I have seen so called custom fitted clubs from the major OEM which have lofts and lies all over the map. Most of the major OEM improvements are cosmetic. That is why the average golfer is getting worse, not better.

      Reply

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      Average handicaps are actually decreasing, so that suggests golfers are actually getting better, not worse.

      Reply

      Justin

      8 years ago

      Don’t you think that has something to do with the recent decline in total number of active golfers? It would make sense that people who are worse would have a higher probability of quitting, therefore trimming the fat and artificially inflating the numbers. I would be really interested to see numbers that back up the data that golfers are getting better. The only way to determine this is to start with a single set of an enormous amount of golfers and track them for a few years. Oh wait, but then you have other people who become golfers for the first time in that same span. Do you include them? But of course! So if you want to tell me a certain subset of golfers is getting better, I might believe it, but as far as golfers as a whole… I doubt it.

      Tony Covey

      8 years ago

      The best metric we have as to whether golfers are getting better or worse (on a large scale) is golfer handicap. The GHIN system provides an enormous amount of data on just this subject. The average handicap is trending down (albeit slightly). Here’s the Golf Digest article that looked into that data: http://www.golfdigest.com/story/comparing-your-handicap-index.

      Anything after that…who’s quitting, who’s not…that’s purely speculative. I could just as easily argue (based on my own experience as a club golfer) that there’s little correlation between ability and frequency of play. It has to do with family life, the increase in traveling sports teams, and other obligations. So if you want to try and toss everything into a single bucket, I’d say age (and the responsibilities that come with it) is more of a contributing factor than ability.

      Steve S

      8 years ago

      While I can’t prove it since my sample size is relatively small….. The handicaps are going down because less golfers are reporting them. My feeling is that the ones reporting are the better golfers that need a handicap to compete in local tournaments.

      When I started playing again in 2003 after a long hiatus, I knew at least a dozen golfers that regularly reported their scores for handicap purposes. Of those there is only one left that does. I play a lot by myself (newly retired, most golf friends still work so they can’t play during the week) and NONE of the younger golfers(20-40) I’m paired with report scores for handicap purposes. Most of the older guys I get matched with stopped reporting because there games are slowly degrading and they don’t want to be reminded. Also, since the number of private/semi private clubs is declining(at least here) the need for a handicap to compete in “club championships” is declining.

      I’d love to figure out a way to measure this. It would be cool to have a metric of “reporters of handicap vs. total number of golfers” over the last 10 years to see if my perception is valid.

      .

      Moi boi

      8 years ago

      Regarding a putter’s moi.

      The author is off. Moment of inertia also affects the club as you move the putter off the ball in the back swing and take it through. MOI – will the putter twist open as you swing back and through and where will the face be at impact. Some people need that face to twist more, some need the face to twist less so they can get the rotation they need given their rotational requirement for a consistent impact.

      So the explanation the author gave for MOI has a major component missing. High MOI is not always the best for a given individual.

      Like many OEMs and I don’t care how patents the author has he hasn’t done his research thoroughly.

      Reply

      Hula_Rock

      8 years ago

      I “Kinda” like the authors resume’……… just saying.

      Reply

      DPavs

      8 years ago

      This sounds like a great confusion between MOI and Arc to me. There is no amount of MOI (short of a gyroscopic device) that can counteract a golfers natural arc. The MOI will only assist in preventing twisting of the club head on off center hits.

      Reply

      Carl Franck

      8 years ago

      Hello To Golf Spy
      I am an avid reader of Golf Spy and was a little taken back by your comments about the
      “Garage Tinkerers ”
      I can say without hesitation that you are possibly 90 +% right but never could you say that that is the case with 100 % because I am in that other 10 %.
      I currently have a patent pending that I need some support from a reputable individual or marketing/manufacturing firm for my patent pending on a new putter. concept.

      I will be will ing to share a % with someone who can get it moving.

      Best regards

      Carl Franck

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